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Originally posted by Xaenn
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Ok, not all rich people don't want equality. However when you have rich conservative capitalists running a business (the media) of course they are going to promote the economic system which has pushed them high above everyone else. It's common logic. It would be very difficult to inplement Marxism now, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't want to.
It'd be virtually impossible.
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That's good then, (if he's telling the truth). The thing is, when celebs are donating and talking about this kinda stuff, it's almost always made VERY sure they the public hears about it. It's good for their image (not meaning the whole motive if selfish).
Yep. That's what I thought, it may be biased or it may be not. The higher taxes from the rich thing in this country came from a Conservative government, though.. Or I'm sure it did.
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I don't think anyone is saying that communism hasn't gone awry. But that is from bad intentions from the start.
Well, yes.. Paying everyone the same salary leads to an economic disaster.. The only true way would be to pay no one a salary (i.e. Marxism).. I don't know though.. Some of your members don't really seem to know some of the bad points of it, but I guess they do now if they didn't.
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I don't have a problem with the hentai sigs. I don't view avatars or signatures. Mainly because my connection is super slow and I just wanna get to the core of the post.
Well, it was a bit of a silly analogy to make in the first place.. I can talk out against this.. So why can't anyone talk out against that? That's what I was saying.
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I don't blame just the media. However is strongly promotes this style of living. America is the consumer culture, which expects to be entertained (the second part had no relevance, just wanted to throw it in ^_^). I don't think the majority of people are selfish. There are a lot who are, but I really think a lot of people are just misguided. If they took some time to re-evaluate their lives they might see things differently.
I guess so.
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Yes i have studied this briefly. And it is true. But also the way the media works is by sending it's message out to some people, who pass it along. The problem is that consumerism has become so deeply ingrained in our culture people don't know what life would be like otherwise. Plus the capitalist system NEEDS greed and NEEDS consumerism to continue. The capitalist system only works by continually growing and expanding. Eventually there will be no more way to grow and expand....When the capitalist system begins collapsing, that's when we can make a change. You can't really deny that capitalism is destined to be it's own demise. By continually consuming our resources we will eventually run out.
I'm not sure what you mean, natural resources? They find a lot more ways to use other natural resources everyday. I suppose you could acquire Marxism that way, but with so many businesses falling anyway and more businesses taking that place of the original one it would be unlikely that this happens, or at least in my mind. Besides, when you grow too fast, you get a recession, right? So more businesses fail under the trade cycle life thing. And because of it more replace..
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As in pride are you refering to their tribe? I don't see why they wouldn't share. By sharing their fire today then the others can share it with them tomorrow. The greatest good is almost always achieved with cooperation.
Yeah, I meant by their tribe.. But we both don't know that for definite on what they'd do.. I really wished I'd watched the life of cavemen now with that Psychology dude ;).
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I don't see why believing in communism makes on misinformed. Isn't that a rather bold and arrogant statement to make? Communist ideals are definately not the norm.
No, you aren't misinformed. Some of your friends are. And, by the way, if you want to see bold and arrogant statements, see Urn's posts to me. They're not particularly nice and I'm trying to be as nice as I can to you people.
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I can only hope one day we could live like that. It would be the biggest improvement from everyone hating eachother like today. I don't see where you have the idea that marxism = no freedom. It's just not true. You have just as much freedom as capitalist if not much more.
I don't know. I think with marxism you'd be forced to conform to something you won't necessarily want.. To me it looks like a Utopia on the outside.. But a dystopia from within.
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That's what I want. No economy. And yes the world should be marxist.
Ok.
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Blame it on the media (heheh). Marxism is even a step above that though. It's not just creating the whole thing and seeing your product shipped off for money. You create something and know that it will be useful for yourself and other people. That is true value.
But if you hate the other person...
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If implemented improperly yes it could. But what system couldn't? Just take religion for example. It's supposed to be a pure thing above love and kindness and freedom equality etc (most of em). However people use it to justify horrible things like slavery and murder. Now of course as rational people we know that's not the religion but the people. Same thing with communism.
Well. I'm a strong believer that it would be implemented improperly. I don't really think that people have learned from their mistakes in the past.
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I think it is the opposite. This is opinion however and neither of us can prove one way or another, but just listen here. When our jobs are merely for a monetary value where's the motivation? Money? If your labor is a shallow material process how can you be proud of and cherish the product of your labor? Have you ever tried really hard to fix something for someone you know, or go very far out of your way to do something that would help someone else? You know the feeling, and you have a cause to your labor. It's the same thing with Marxism. You aren't working for your pay, you're working for the benefit of the community, because your labor will go to good use.
But like I keep saying, it's unrealistic because everyone does not like everyone.
See Urn's posts. Is it not fair for me to say and judge that he hates rich people so much that if we ended up living in a Marxist society, he'd still hate and not help?
We'd all be in the same boat.. And people are ALWAYS going to hate someone else for whatever reason. It's sad, it's pathetic but it's a fact of life. People hate for colour, creed, god knows.
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I'm studying to be an electrical engineer. Yes, it will pay very good. But besides that I hope that I can design something or allow my work to be of use to someone. If I am not fullfilled by what my job will produce then I will probably try and work elsewhere. I don't think it's all about the money. Or if it is it'll be a job you're not happy with. Like you and programming. You would do that and design games or whatever you want because you like it. That's reason enough to become educated and do it. Because you enjoy it. It doesn't matter if it's more difficult. The fact is you can do it, and like it. Also I would like to think that some people actually enjoy learning. School can weigh one down with lots of work and being expensive, however you can still learn many things.
No, it isn't all about the money.. But without money you're pretty much screwed.
But, if you implement Marxism, then you wouldn't allow me to work in a job that I enjoy so much.. I.e. Programming, because it is a job that isn't needed by the system.. So in a way, you start taking away what I want and what I enjoy and what I want to do.
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I don't understand what you mean about the communistic robots? Is working in an office 9 to 5 every day not robotic?
It is. But if you see my point above, some of my civil liberties would be constrained even more in Marxism or Communism
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I know they can't be satisfied every day. But there must be some overall satisfaction in what one's work is in order for them to continue on without despair.
Oh, and presuming there isn't. They go on strike.. Or they riot. Then what? You could get a collapsing health system. And sure enough, you can't replace all doctors THAT easily.. Yeah, you can do it for farming more easily.
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Let's assume as you said for a minute that money is what makes people happy from their labor. In that logic whether or not you are curing diseases or torturing someone shouldn't matter, only what you are paid. Let's say the torturer is paid MUCH more, 100 times as much to be exact. However in reality he feels very sick and sad when he comes home from work knowing the terrible acts he has done. The one curing diseases gets a big sense of pride for the work he has done and how he can save lives.
That's an assumption and it isn't backed up by fact.
How do you not know that someone on death row enjoys pushing the button or what not on an electric chair? *even though they probably don't use this method anymore*
How do you not know that the Doctor is only being a Doctor because his Mum or Dad said to?
There's inhumane people in life and bringing in Marxism wouldn't stop that at all..
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Or we could continue on our same path where many people are starving and murdering eachother over money. It may not work perfectly in implementation. But we need a change. And Marxism very well could be that.
And all murder would stop in Marxism? I just don't think so somehow.
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What about capitalism spinning out of control because nobody wants to work?
Yes. But if they want to survive, they have to work to earn a salary. They choose whether they die out on the streets or whatever. And if you think it's so easy to get dole money, then think again, I can give you some real life examples of people who've deserved it and haven't got it.
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If all laborers were to strike capitalism would fall apart.
If all labourers would strike, their civil liberties would be taken away by the government.
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There is not that unity within people however. No system can be perfect, but you must look at what it acheives while running smoothly, not only the worst case scenario.
Depends.
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Yeah, we aren't perfect people. But if we settle for less than we limit ourselves. By pushing ourselves and striving to do the best we can, we improve. By settling for capitalism we are limiting ourselves in the lives they we could live.
But what if people really don't think they're limiting themselves? What if they AREN'T limiting themselves and enjoying themselves. Why should they be thrust into Marxism if they don't want it? It should all be people's choice.
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Well Marx believes that people are laboring beings by nature. Given the choice to labor and create or do nothing, that we would choose laboring. I would have to agree to an extent. I don't think one would want to sit on their ass all day and do nothing. How long could one continue like that? And if they did, the only logical thing I can say is that if you don't contribute to the community than you cannot partake in what it creates.
Then it makes Marxism as bad as Capitalism. I guess. Except in Capitalism, at least people have YMCA's and things...
And, you could get a strike in Marxism too.. Probably a lot more easier than you could in Capitalism.. If the government is forced to see the error of it's ways.. Would they just impose more constraints on them? This is why I said they end up corrupted in the first place.. All you need is a few unhappy people, and that is bound to happen under any system, any place, any time.
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Why would we give up on that? Of course we would still produce food. Think for a second, there are still farmers. Small farmers sure don't make a lot of money, so they must have other reasons for farming.....XD
You're wrong there.. They make quite a bit of money.
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Why does economic equality = exactly the same. I don't expect people to be exactly the same.
Urn does, heck, he even said what I was saying is racist when I pointed out we have basic biological differences.
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But economic equality is a totally different thing. Just because there is no private property doesn't mean we have to do away with all luxuries. Think for a second, about how much technology we have. Now think about how many people are working in this world, and there still aren't enough jobs for all of them. Now think about how much of our labor actually is dedicated to our survival? Not very much. Maybe 5% would a very generous estimate. The fact is, we don't need to work a lot to survive. That's why people would design and create luxuries in their free time.
Yeah, the only problem with that is.. It takes a long time to design and create luxuries.. And if people are used to something and they're not used to that, then you may get forms of unrest..
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In reality I think a marxist society would consist of many small communities. Of course not everyone gets along. But even people who disagree can put aside their differences.
LOL. Doesn't happen. So if you put a white BNP (Fascist basically) member with a bunch of black people.. Or, something to a similar affect, they're going to put aside their differences and play ball game? I really, REALLY doubt that.
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And if they can't they can move somewhere else to not see eachother, much as someone might do in our current society.
Time wasted = More people starving.
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Just because I don't like one person living in my communty doesn't mean I dislike the whole community. It boils down to people putting aside petty differences.
And people won't.
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I don't think you're being flamed. The thing is, people might find this offensive. But people can find anything offensive. If they don't like it, they can keep away from the communist guild.
But the point is, you're saying your a Marxist yet you're in a Communist guild. Now I know they're closely linked, but Communism is a helluva lot more offensive than Marxism in my book.
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They can turn off signatures and not look at our ideals. But the thing is, if we shouldn't subject people to these beliefs, then we should subject them to none.
Why should they? Why should they be chased and cajoled into doing that?
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That would call for total censorship which doesn't seem appealing to me. People need to not be so offended by on other's opinons. People will inevitably disagree, it is up to them what to do when they do however.
Yeah, and the sad thing is when people disagree on this forum, they tend to get nasty. Believe me. Which is why I simply said it shouldn't be here in the first place because people may get offended and may get nasty.
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If you have respect for us members you should understand it's only fair for us to express our opinions.
I do. And so far, in my eyes, you're the only one treating me with respect..
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Otherwise no one would talk and this community wouldn't be what it is. The fact it is open to all ideas is what makes it great. I find Bush very offensive and think the things he does are horrible and tyrannical. However I won't fuss when people promote them in their posts....
What's wrong in speaking your mind?
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Everything is a matter of an opinion. Every single thing you believe is based on premises...none of those are fact. If you follow back to the beginning it goes back to your beliefs of what you believe is true. Therefore everything is based on one's beliefs and therefore their opinion. It seems to me there has been a lot of discussion of politics on this board. Honestly, if you don't like discussing politics you can avoid those threads. Just as I might avoid hentai and anime threads as they don't interest me.
I never said I didn't like speaking about politics. But even every single thing you believe is based on a premises too...
Yes. I asked what would happen if someone did. So it's one rule for you and one rule for another.
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Our lives are political in nature, as are human interactions. If this forum was limited to emulation only it wouldn't be what it is, and people would lose interest. But by bringing in other aspects of life people have a chance to continue to communicate, to continue to discuss, and to learn.
But people start to insult and fail to "discuss".l
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After this post my 500 gil or so shall be donated. XD I don't see exactly how it fits in with the marxist ideal, but I'm in.
You're in the implemented guild, not the theory guild.