Originally posted by Xaenn

I don't think it's being thrust in anyone's face...We're just saying that we like it, just as someone who promotes capitalism or democracy does. Just because there is so much anti-communistic propaganda out there.....Which btw happens to be from all the rich people who would not want equality.
That's a strong accusation to make, not ALL the people who DON'T want equality are rich. You only have to look at some extremeist groups, are you trying to say that everyone person who joins them are rich? I really don't think so somehow. As for me not wanting equality, well gee, I do, but I realise that in this day and age, it's a relatively unobtainable goal.. But I'll go into that further down.

Oh by the way, modern example of why your statement on rich people are wrong. (Granted he may be lying..)

Watched Parkinson a couple of weeks ago, George Michael was on it. He agrees in higher taxes for the rich, which of course, is pumped back into the system and used for public services. In a way, isn't he believing he should be equal with everyone else? He even says his next album will be free, only with a small contribution to a charity or so.

Hold communism as an economic system and nothing more...I know I do.
Indeed it is an economic system. I can accept that. However, what I can't accept is misinformed people... Who have never seen a bad side of how communism can turn, ever.

I'm not trying to convert your ideals or be unfriendly. How is it any different from people with hentai sigs? They are just putting in what they believe. What is unfriendly about equality?
I didn't think you were trying to convert my ideals or be unfriendly. However, everyone else in your group seems to think it's ok to treat me like an outcast because I have a different political standing and because I said there's a time and place for this kind of discussion (mainly because people end up being flamed.)

As for people with the hentai sigs, if you have a problem with that, why don't you speak out against it? I'm just exercising my freedom of speech. I don't really have a problem in their hentai sigs.. But I do have a problem with this, which is why I'm speaking about it.

As for equality, nothing is unfriendly in it. I never once said it was. I said that human beings are naturally selfish and that communism doesn't work out.. But like I said, I'd go into that later.

People aren't naturally selfish...However the media tries it's best to teach people the consumerist and selfish ideals.
The majority of people are selfish. You can't deny this. Look at business... And those rich entrepeneurs you find.. And I wouldn't blame JUST the media. There's always OTHER external factors.

You talk about Marxism further down, eh? Well, I studied Sociology at one point..(Like 3 years ago) Karl Marx was mentioned a lot.. I can't remember a lot of things he said, but I know at the time I thought he was talking rubbish, but that's me.

Also, if you go into depths of Sociology, you get this thing called "Socialisation" where people are conditioned by their parents and secondarily by schools into being WHO they are.

So perhaps parents have something to do with it..

And if you keep tracing down the line.. You get to cavemen, right? So, saying that theory was true.. Cavemen could have been teaching their kids to be selfish.. If they even had that cognitive ability. Which, they do, sort of.. Since children learn from their parents.. Even ducks, etc, do it this way.

Lets face it, if I was a cavewoman, would I really let another part of the "pride" share my fire? I don't even think they did.. They were pretty animalistic and true to who their pride is.. Like Lions of today.

Oh, and sorry for discrepencies.. I'm not a evolutionist, by any means.. I was just taking a small example.

Communism /= no civil liberties. I don't care how it has been implemented. That is not what marxism is. (yes, when I refer to communism ever I mean marxism)
I dunno. I've always considered them both to be very different things....

Marxism seems friendly and nice enough, but when I see the word communism, I instantly think of all those times it's gone wrong and think about it.. Hard.. And realise that most people are misinformed and that's when it REALLY gets my goat up.

It's not the abuse of workers. Let's see, everyone has the same salary. Or better yet in true marxism no salary. You don't need private property. Your motivation is the product of your labor.
I don't really see how you can honestly and plausibly see people living like that. It's like telling everyone that THAT is what they have to do whether they like it or not. Where is the freedom of choice? And I know you can just counter balance that with capitalism, but surely that seems like a much better place to live in... Because of what I write below!

I hope you realise, too, that if you had no salary then your economy would collapse..

Or are you saying there'd be no need for exchange rates, inflation and interest rates?

The only true way what your proposing would work.. Is if everyone and every country was a Marxist society.

You can look at what you have done in your time, and be proud of what you have produced. Rather than looking and seeing nothing more than a monetary value.
Good point. Kind of. I know a lot of businesses these days use like a "job production" scheme..

I.E. A person making a bed gets to make every single part of that bed and put their name on it. Granted. It's an expensive bed and they get paid less but they're happy of what they've made.

However, who is to say that isn't biased information? There's always a lot of it floating around.. And I'm taking that example from something I saw on TV..

Media influences again, I guess.

If you want to talk about no motivation...what you produce in capitalism doesn't matter as long as you can still earn your same wage.
Herzberg O.O ...

I suppose to an extent it doesn't matter.. 'Cept to me it matters what I produce.

For example, if I ended up designing web pages when I want to make games, then it would matter. And I know for a fact I'd be paid a lot less making games as a Junior Programmer.. Heh.

However, this IS a capitalist society.. and to me it does matter what I produce.

And yes, I realise this is like saying I do agree in this whole Communism thing.. But no, really, I don't. Why? Because I believe it leads to abuse of a well thought out system.. It's sad really.

So if someone doesn't know you're not working, why work? you still make the same money...
Hmmm... Not quite.

If you don't work you shouldn't be paid (i.e. dole systems in the UK). Most places don't really give you any income support for not working. But with Communism you can do any job and be paid the same salary, or no salary right?

I believe that salary is a driving force for many people.. So, if you do that, then you have a problem where the job is devalued and people pay a lot less attention psychologically (even if they're not aware of it) to what they're doing.

I would also argue that the reason one would become a doctor is so that they can help people and not to become wealthy.
Ok. Any other job where the person would get paid more than a road sweeper.

/me shrugs.

Doesn't just have to be a doctor you know, in a way you'd be saying everyone is conditioned to be the same.. I.E. some form of robots

The doctor can have much satisfaction after his day of labor knowing that he helped his friends and his community.
I'm not a Doctor. In modern day times, are you sure they come home every night satisfied? I wouldn't like to wager on it. Sure, they may be happy that they saved some lives.. But are they HAPPY. Baring in mind they get paid a salary too, and it's like a driving force.. If you took that away... Then what? Does he still remain happy, or does he not remain as happy?

You could end up on the road from what looks like a perfect utopia on the outside.. To a hellish dystopia in the end.

Oh, also in Marxism you decide what you will do.
Yes, but I was talking about Communism. When Communism spirals out of control and people start saying they don't want this and they don't like it.. The state HAS to take a form of control to keep the economic stability!

Also! I've said this before, but Marxism is a "perfect" theory and we aren't "perfect" people. We all can't be Jesus or Muhammed or Buddha.

You aren't restrained to do only one thing. If you want to sweep roads one day, and help paint houses the next, go ahead. It's fine.
Sounds far too perfect to me.

I want to sit on my ass all day, is that ok too? .. I mean we don't get paid, so do I have a reason to go up and paint houses or sweep roads?

Here's the thing. We associate labor as something we must do. This isn't necessarily true.
So, we're meant to give up on agriculture and stuff? We're just meant to starve?

Agriculture and farming is another form of labour.. And we need that labour to stay alive.

While we must work to some degree to survive, why work beyond this? If we work so much trying to buy things that don't make us happy, why not work as a community, and create what is necessary to survive. Then in our free time we can pursue what we wish, whether it be to create something magnificent or to spend time with friends.
Oh right. Ignore what I said above then.

A lot of people these days are materialistic and enjoy luxuries.. Even so JUST the community won't keep everyone happy.

They're all unique and different right? So equality can't be formed unless you condition people to be exactly the same.. I.E. robots again.

I mean lets face it.. Urn flamed me for being different.

/me shrugs.

I rest my case.. There'd be unrest in a community.

People won't always get on together, you know? What happens when you get a husband and wife and the wife cheats on the husband.

How do you manage to stay "friends" with that person and work for the good of the "community"

It fails to be a friend nor a community after that.

Edit: and finally. One might not have seen the most satisfactory results when people have tried to implement this system (many reasons why).
Yeah, which is kind of why I said it's a bit pointless to follow them in the first place.. .

That's not the point. I believe the reason people join this guild is because they adhere to the ideals of communism. I don't see how one can argue with the ideals.....
It's gotten off topic. I said that both fascism and communism is wrong and that they can be seen as offensive by members. If they see it that way why should they have to put up with it? It's your ideals and no one is trying to stop you from having them. Why should I be stopped of having mine and be getting flamed by your other members?

All I'm saying is, have respect for other members, try to keep ideals to yourself. You seem like you have decent ideals, but I can assure you it depends on how people "interpret" communism, and that's when it becomes offensive and when it should be stopped.

I wasn't planning on replying on this, because it's all a big matter of opinion, but I have.. Because I couldn't just leave it as it was. I'm not flaming any of your members.. I'm trying to say that it's wrong to discuss politics.. But hey, since a mod said it's ok then I guess it's ok.

And by the by, if someone made a fascist guild they'd be banned.. What's wrong with them having their ideals?

/me shrugs again.

This is why I said politics is wrong to be brought into an emulation forum.

P.S. It took me ages to write this post, so sorry if it's a double post.

/me has no idea if it is or not.