The Communist Guild

[Nima D'Graven]

Originally posted by Xaenn

I don't think it's being thrust in anyone's face...We're just saying that we like it, just as someone who promotes capitalism or democracy does. Just because there is so much anti-communistic propaganda out there.....Which btw happens to be from all the rich people who would not want equality.

That's a strong accusation to make, not ALL the people who DON'T want equality are rich. You only have to look at some extremeist groups, are you trying to say that everyone person who joins them are rich? I really don't think so somehow. As for me not wanting equality, well gee, I do, but I realise that in this day and age, it's a relatively unobtainable goal.. But I'll go into that further down.

Oh by the way, modern example of why your statement on rich people are wrong. (Granted he may be lying..)

Watched Parkinson a couple of weeks ago, George Michael was on it. He agrees in higher taxes for the rich, which of course, is pumped back into the system and used for public services. In a way, isn't he believing he should be equal with everyone else? He even says his next album will be free, only with a small contribution to a charity or so.

Hold communism as an economic system and nothing more...I know I do.

Indeed it is an economic system. I can accept that. However, what I can't accept is misinformed people... Who have never seen a bad side of how communism can turn, ever.

I'm not trying to convert your ideals or be unfriendly. How is it any different from people with hentai sigs? They are just putting in what they believe. What is unfriendly about equality?

I didn't think you were trying to convert my ideals or be unfriendly. However, everyone else in your group seems to think it's ok to treat me like an outcast because I have a different political standing and because I said there's a time and place for this kind of discussion (mainly because people end up being flamed.)

As for people with the hentai sigs, if you have a problem with that, why don't you speak out against it? I'm just exercising my freedom of speech. I don't really have a problem in their hentai sigs.. But I do have a problem with this, which is why I'm speaking about it.

As for equality, nothing is unfriendly in it. I never once said it was. I said that human beings are naturally selfish and that communism doesn't work out.. But like I said, I'd go into that later.

People aren't naturally selfish...However the media tries it's best to teach people the consumerist and selfish ideals.

The majority of people are selfish. You can't deny this. Look at business... And those rich entrepeneurs you find.. And I wouldn't blame JUST the media. There's always OTHER external factors.

You talk about Marxism further down, eh? Well, I studied Sociology at one point..(Like 3 years ago) Karl Marx was mentioned a lot.. I can't remember a lot of things he said, but I know at the time I thought he was talking rubbish, but that's me.

Also, if you go into depths of Sociology, you get this thing called "Socialisation" where people are conditioned by their parents and secondarily by schools into being WHO they are.

So perhaps parents have something to do with it..

And if you keep tracing down the line.. You get to cavemen, right? So, saying that theory was true.. Cavemen could have been teaching their kids to be selfish.. If they even had that cognitive ability. Which, they do, sort of.. Since children learn from their parents.. Even ducks, etc, do it this way.

Lets face it, if I was a cavewoman, would I really let another part of the "pride" share my fire? I don't even think they did.. They were pretty animalistic and true to who their pride is.. Like Lions of today.

Oh, and sorry for discrepencies.. I'm not a evolutionist, by any means.. I was just taking a small example.

Communism /= no civil liberties. I don't care how it has been implemented. That is not what marxism is. (yes, when I refer to communism ever I mean marxism)

I dunno. I've always considered them both to be very different things....

Marxism seems friendly and nice enough, but when I see the word communism, I instantly think of all those times it's gone wrong and think about it.. Hard.. And realise that most people are misinformed and that's when it REALLY gets my goat up.

It's not the abuse of workers. Let's see, everyone has the same salary. Or better yet in true marxism no salary. You don't need private property. Your motivation is the product of your labor.

I don't really see how you can honestly and plausibly see people living like that. It's like telling everyone that THAT is what they have to do whether they like it or not. Where is the freedom of choice? And I know you can just counter balance that with capitalism, but surely that seems like a much better place to live in... Because of what I write below!

I hope you realise, too, that if you had no salary then your economy would collapse..

Or are you saying there'd be no need for exchange rates, inflation and interest rates?

The only true way what your proposing would work.. Is if everyone and every country was a Marxist society.

You can look at what you have done in your time, and be proud of what you have produced. Rather than looking and seeing nothing more than a monetary value.

Good point. Kind of. I know a lot of businesses these days use like a "job production" scheme..

I.E. A person making a bed gets to make every single part of that bed and put their name on it. Granted. It's an expensive bed and they get paid less but they're happy of what they've made.

However, who is to say that isn't biased information? There's always a lot of it floating around.. And I'm taking that example from something I saw on TV..

Media influences again, I guess.

If you want to talk about no motivation...what you produce in capitalism doesn't matter as long as you can still earn your same wage.

Herzberg O.O ...

I suppose to an extent it doesn't matter.. 'Cept to me it matters what I produce.

For example, if I ended up designing web pages when I want to make games, then it would matter. And I know for a fact I'd be paid a lot less making games as a Junior Programmer.. Heh.

However, this IS a capitalist society.. and to me it does matter what I produce.

And yes, I realise this is like saying I do agree in this whole Communism thing.. But no, really, I don't. Why? Because I believe it leads to abuse of a well thought out system.. It's sad really.

So if someone doesn't know you're not working, why work? you still make the same money...

Hmmm... Not quite.

If you don't work you shouldn't be paid (i.e. dole systems in the UK). Most places don't really give you any income support for not working. But with Communism you can do any job and be paid the same salary, or no salary right?

I believe that salary is a driving force for many people.. So, if you do that, then you have a problem where the job is devalued and people pay a lot less attention psychologically (even if they're not aware of it) to what they're doing.

I would also argue that the reason one would become a doctor is so that they can help people and not to become wealthy.

Ok. Any other job where the person would get paid more than a road sweeper.

/me shrugs.

Doesn't just have to be a doctor you know, in a way you'd be saying everyone is conditioned to be the same.. I.E. some form of robots

The doctor can have much satisfaction after his day of labor knowing that he helped his friends and his community.

I'm not a Doctor. In modern day times, are you sure they come home every night satisfied? I wouldn't like to wager on it. Sure, they may be happy that they saved some lives.. But are they HAPPY. Baring in mind they get paid a salary too, and it's like a driving force.. If you took that away... Then what? Does he still remain happy, or does he not remain as happy?

You could end up on the road from what looks like a perfect utopia on the outside.. To a hellish dystopia in the end.

Oh, also in Marxism you decide what you will do.

Yes, but I was talking about Communism. When Communism spirals out of control and people start saying they don't want this and they don't like it.. The state HAS to take a form of control to keep the economic stability!

Also! I've said this before, but Marxism is a "perfect" theory and we aren't "perfect" people. We all can't be Jesus or Muhammed or Buddha.

You aren't restrained to do only one thing. If you want to sweep roads one day, and help paint houses the next, go ahead. It's fine.

Sounds far too perfect to me.

I want to sit on my ass all day, is that ok too? .. I mean we don't get paid, so do I have a reason to go up and paint houses or sweep roads?

Here's the thing. We associate labor as something we must do. This isn't necessarily true.

So, we're meant to give up on agriculture and stuff? We're just meant to starve?

Agriculture and farming is another form of labour.. And we need that labour to stay alive.

While we must work to some degree to survive, why work beyond this? If we work so much trying to buy things that don't make us happy, why not work as a community, and create what is necessary to survive. Then in our free time we can pursue what we wish, whether it be to create something magnificent or to spend time with friends.

Oh right. Ignore what I said above then.

A lot of people these days are materialistic and enjoy luxuries.. Even so JUST the community won't keep everyone happy.

They're all unique and different right? So equality can't be formed unless you condition people to be exactly the same.. I.E. robots again.

I mean lets face it.. Urn flamed me for being different.

/me shrugs.

I rest my case.. There'd be unrest in a community.

People won't always get on together, you know? What happens when you get a husband and wife and the wife cheats on the husband.

How do you manage to stay "friends" with that person and work for the good of the "community"

It fails to be a friend nor a community after that.

Edit: and finally. One might not have seen the most satisfactory results when people have tried to implement this system (many reasons why).

Yeah, which is kind of why I said it's a bit pointless to follow them in the first place.. .

That's not the point. I believe the reason people join this guild is because they adhere to the ideals of communism. I don't see how one can argue with the ideals.....

It's gotten off topic. I said that both fascism and communism is wrong and that they can be seen as offensive by members. If they see it that way why should they have to put up with it? It's your ideals and no one is trying to stop you from having them. Why should I be stopped of having mine and be getting flamed by your other members?

All I'm saying is, have respect for other members, try to keep ideals to yourself. You seem like you have decent ideals, but I can assure you it depends on how people "interpret" communism, and that's when it becomes offensive and when it should be stopped.

I wasn't planning on replying on this, because it's all a big matter of opinion, but I have.. Because I couldn't just leave it as it was. I'm not flaming any of your members.. I'm trying to say that it's wrong to discuss politics.. But hey, since a mod said it's ok then I guess it's ok.

And by the by, if someone made a fascist guild they'd be banned.. What's wrong with them having their ideals?

/me shrugs again.

This is why I said politics is wrong to be brought into an emulation forum.

P.S. It took me ages to write this post, so sorry if it's a double post.

/me has no idea if it is or not.

[Urn]

=|
......always big posts?
*************
* I have a clue what i belive in. Why do you think i dont?
* Marxism - basis of communism.
* You didnt want to discuss political problems on that forum,
But what do we got here?????
* What truth ??? I Dont think you understand everything clearly.
I wasnt explaining theory to others (yet) . And wasnt providing
it. What are you talking about???

[Nima D'Graven]

* I have a clue what i belive in. Why do you think i dont?

You flamed me.. What else am I supposed to think when no one is even putting up an argument and just telling me NOT to post instead?

* Marxism - basis of communism.

Indeed it is. What I'm saying is that the implementation of it went wrong.. And that communism can be seen as something of a dystopia compared to the theory which was more of a utopia.

* You didnt want to discuss political problems on that forum,
But what do we got here?????

At first I wasn't. I was telling you any type of discussion on a forum with politics is wrong.. But because mods said it's ok, then I guess it's ok, right?

* What truth ??? I Dont think you understand everything clearly.
I wasnt explaining theory to others (yet) . And wasnt providing
it. What are you talking about???

Merely saying you're a communist guild enough is a "truth" and a "theory" wrapped into one.

You don't have to explain to those who already know..

[Urn]

*************************
All peole equal, its their birth right. Agree ??? Humanity says so.
Therefore, all people must be equal economically. Well,
not rich, but at least not starving.
Hope youre not saying its wrong. And dont say that current
world situation is perfect. Do you know that half
world money are concentrated at rich people's pockets?
Do you realize how many people they could feed??
Poor children in africa, azia... What am i saying? Look around,
youll see a lots of hungry, homeless people. Dont you think, theyre worse than you?? They dont.
I know whats your problem is. You are everybody. Youll do what theyll say to you. They say 'Its bad', and you belive. Youre just saying
'yeah, our civilization has lotsa problems, but i have nothing to do with it'. And youll leave with it whole your life. Pathetic.
Yes, i understand, its the problem of our rotten selfish brains.
But isnt it good to belive in something pure, crystal clean...?
Note, im saying about ideology itself, not about its implementation
in USSR.
******
the rest l8r

[Nima D'Graven]

Originally posted by Urn
All peole equal, its their birth right. Agree ??? Humanity says so.
Therefore, all people must be equal economically.

ARE all people equal at birth though?

Physically, they don't have to be equal.. They can have different colour hair, eyes and skin..

So straight away, they're not totally equal on SIGHT.. and no I'm not saying this is a good thing, I'm just pointing it out on a very basic level that you could wish people were born equal but to achieve that, we'd all have to look the same and have the same personality.

As for equal economics the only way you'd achieve that is by ridding an economic system.. Which is indeed Marxism where you receive no salary.. It's not going to happen now, if it was, it should have been started from the day the human race started :/.

Well,
not rich, but at least not starving.
Hope youre not saying its wrong. And dont say that current
world situation is perfect. Do you know that half
world money are concentrated at rich people's pockets?

And no the world isn't perfect, but does implementing Marxism mean that the world would be happy and "perfect"? . Maybe people wouldn't all be that happy because of it.

And yes, I do know that all the money is centralised on government fat cats and what not. I hear my Dad go on about it enough.

Do you realize how many people they could feed??
Poor children in africa, azia... What am i saying?

Vegetarians have ideas about how if people stopped eating meat you could use the food that is used to fatten animals up to feed starving people, too. It can be achieved, Marxism isn't the only answer. But agreed, half of the problems are caused by capitalism and what not. But who is to say if Marxism was implemented to it's fullist that it wouldn't cause some kind of bad effect? Who knows? After all, it's just a theory that hasn't been implemented TRUE to itself.

Look around,
youll see a lots of hungry, homeless people. Dont you think, theyre worse than you?? They dont.

It depends on how they got into that position. If they have truly deserved to earn something in life and they didn't deserve to be homeless then fine.

But what about the "bums" in life. The type of beggars you find who when you pass them 50 pence then they go and spend it on alcohol or drugs?

You could get just the same type of bums in Marxism too.. You could get the types who don't want to work to make the community better..

I know whats your problem is. You are everybody. Youll do what theyll say to you. They say 'Its bad', and you belive. Youre just saying
'yeah, our civilization has lotsa problems, but i have nothing to do with it'.

No. I'm not everybody. I'm a unique individual. I have thoughts, feelings, a personality.

However, I strongly believe that if you implement Marxism perfectly, then you ARE "everybody" because you would be a robot conforming to something that might not necessarily makes you happy. And this is true for any system.. But for now, no.. Especially when I have my freedom of speech and my beliefs.. I'm not just conforming along.

As for people saying it's bad, it's true that it's bad.. I don't believe a lot of things and I certainly don't take things on face value, either. I question things.. It exercises my mind.

As for civilization having a lot of problems.. Well, can one not consider the Marxist theory has having a lot of problems too?

And youll leave with it whole your life. Pathetic.

We don't leave it our whole life. I believe in a democratic system, you have the power to vote it out and choose who you want to rule you.

Yet you look at Iraq.. And the people there who had a life forced upon them with a vicious dictator.. They couldn't change their life, they didn't have the democratic vote.

How can you deem them as pathetic?

Granted. There's been some martyrs..

And you could say that Bin Laden is just another one of them.. He's trying to change "society" for the "better" according to his beliefs..

He's doing the right thing? I'm sorry. But I see him as pathetic in all honesty .

And by the way, I'm talking about the way I see my politics.. If I am unhappy with something, I'd fight to change it.. Be it by direct action with an outsider pressure group, but god, I would try.

Yes, i understand, its the problem of our rotten selfish brains.

Agreed.

But isnt it good to belive in something pure, crystal clean...?Note, im saying about ideology itself, not about its implementation
in USSR.

It's perfectly healthy to believe in a theory that is pure and crystal clean. Even I can sit back and admit that Marxism on the outside sounds like a perfect utopia, but.. I know it won't work, and this is what this is about.

In a way it's kind of living in a fantasy land.. Kinda like living in Coruscant in Star Wars in a galaxy far, far away.

Trying to get that utopia is pretty unobtainable.. Why bother? Fantastical ideas are nice and all.. But if it's a totally unrealistic goal (Which I'd say it was with a certainty of 99.9%) Then why bother? Sure, you can have hope for the other 00.1%.. No ones stopping you.

And no! I'm not offended that you like to believe in fantastical ideas.. The only thing that DID offend me is the fact that you SAY your marxists (Theory) yet call yourself communists (implementation). Some parts of communism is misunderstood by a lot of people.. It's disturbing to see, and that's the only reason I came along anyway.

I doubt we'd be having this conversation otherwise .

But..

/me sighs.

This is fun and a great conversation! At least we're not flaming each other now and actually discussing.. Just as long as it keeps that way.... Which it often doesn't :/.

[johnny blaze]

Originally posted by WaffenSSBroli
So was nixon, watergate.

Yeah? At least Nixon didn't kill his generals because he thought they might someday rebel against him.

[Toto]

Very nicely said Xaenn.
In response to Nimagraven, it is not as if all of us are blindly parading the hammer and sickle and shouting "Communism is the best and you are stupid for not thinking so (at least, that's not what I'm doing). I acknowledge that it has been used for ends that contradict the ideology itself.

On the other hand, though, I think that it is the only ideology in which equality has the chance of prevailing. I think democracy is flawed, and while other ideologies have their merits, I think communism (or Marxism) has the best chance of succeeding, IF...

Which brings me to adress your statement regarding communism not working or not. I must confess, I'm not completely and utterly informed (I won't pretend to know more than I do), but I have read a substantial amount on the subject. Which has led me to believe: At this stage, communism could not work. "BUT TOTO YOUR FUCKING YOUR OWN ARGUMENT IN THE ASS!!!!!111111" I might hear you say. Maybe I am. But I think that, if given time and resource, communism could work. It doesn't work in individual communist countries, as pressure comes from the rest of the world (if the Cold War isn't an example, I don't know what is). If the entire world (or at least the parts of it that conduct the most wealth) turned communist, then we'd be able to invest time. And make it work

[Ifrit]

Originally posted by NimaGraven
2) I think you should donate all your gil to MasJ.. He is the "state" after all.

Done! I've just donated all my money to MasJ, and from now on, every gil i make will be sent to him. I also suggest other members of this party to do the same. MasJ is now the richest member with a grand total of 4000+ gil after my humble donation of 1200 gil. Happy?

[Urn]

You flamed me.. What else am I supposed to think when no one is even putting up an argument and just telling me NOT to post instead?

I can quote one good writer... 'Im always amazed, how people
on the basis of right facts built wrong theories'. Sorry for awry translation.

They can have different colour hair, eyes and skin.. So straight away, they're not totally equal on SIGHT

Smells like racism. And, thats biology question.
All people are equal. Dont Agree??
Yeah, just say that white men are higher...

you'd achieve that is by ridding an economic system

Yeah, youre starting to understand

where you receive no salary

Haha, in your world salary is everything for you. Thats pathetic.
And selfish.

Vegetarians have ideas about how if people stopped eating meat you could use the food that is used to fatten animals up to feed starving people, too.

Were not discussing the topic "How To Feed All People With Minimum Costs". Maybe, youll create one?

About democracy... There in no democracy.
Because of money. There will appear people, who will want to
have everything. All the money. Thats why all pure democracy
beginings will lead to capitalism problems, corruption and so on.
And... Hahaha. You think that your vote mean something.
No. It means nothing. Everything is bought. And thats why im so angry. I cant stand to see how rich people slave poor ones.
Exploiter even have a song "Theres a law for the rich, and no for the people like you and me". Dont object. At least for now.
Think about it.

And please. Admit. That having a dream is a good thing...
(Ahem... Never mind, im just flying in the skies)

For now, i can say, that comrade NimaGraven trying to cling
some small, pointless details, tries to divide one question into
many questions, and complicate everything. Thats not good.

AND!! Importand.
NimaGraven EVADES answering direct questions.
Ex. : see quotes above.

PS. Iraq problem and democracy is another good topic to discuss,
but, please, not in that thread.

PPS. About money and salary. Im sick of that dirty pieces of paper.
Im not greedy, ill always share everything that i have.
But think about it. Isnt its annoying, always worry about how much somebody owes you, or you owe somebody. Or that somebody will take and wont return you something, that BELONGS TO YOU.
Im sick of it.

PPPS. And gave all my 70 gil to MasJ.

[nosebluntsmoker]

Urn wins.

[Sting]

commies still around?

[Xaenn]

Originally posted by NimaGraven
That's a strong accusation to make, not ALL the people who DON'T want equality are rich. You only have to look at some extremeist groups, are you trying to say that everyone person who joins them are rich? I really don't think so somehow. As for me not wanting equality, well gee, I do, but I realise that in this day and age, it's a relatively unobtainable goal.. But I'll go into that further down.

Ok, not all rich people don't want equality. However when you have rich conservative capitalists running a business (the media) of course they are going to promote the economic system which has pushed them high above everyone else. It's common logic. It would be very difficult to inplement Marxism now, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't want to.

Watched Parkinson a couple of weeks ago, George Michael was on it. He agrees in higher taxes for the rich, which of course, is pumped back into the system and used for public services. In a way, isn't he believing he should be equal with everyone else? He even says his next album will be free, only with a small contribution to a charity or so.

That's good then, (if he's telling the truth). The thing is, when celebs are donating and talking about this kinda stuff, it's almost always made VERY sure they the public hears about it. It's good for their image (not meaning the whole motive if selfish).

Indeed it is an economic system. I can accept that. However, what I can't accept is misinformed people... Who have never seen a bad side of how communism can turn, ever.

I don't think anyone is saying that communism hasn't gone awry. But that is from bad intentions from the start.

As for people with the hentai sigs, if you have a problem with that, why don't you speak out against it? I'm just exercising my freedom of speech. I don't really have a problem in their hentai sigs.. But I do have a problem with this, which is why I'm speaking about it.

I don't have a problem with the hentai sigs. I don't view avatars or signatures. Mainly because my connection is super slow and I just wanna get to the core of the post.

The majority of people are selfish. You can't deny this. Look at business... And those rich entrepeneurs you find.. And I wouldn't blame JUST the media. There's always OTHER external factors.

I don't blame just the media. However is strongly promotes this style of living. America is the consumer culture, which expects to be entertained (the second part had no relevance, just wanted to throw it in ). I don't think the majority of people are selfish. There are a lot who are, but I really think a lot of people are just misguided. If they took some time to re-evaluate their lives they might see things differently.

Also, if you go into depths of Sociology, you get this thing called "Socialisation" where people are conditioned by their parents and secondarily by schools into being WHO they are.

So perhaps parents have something to do with it..

Yes i have studied this briefly. And it is true. But also the way the media works is by sending it's message out to some people, who pass it along. The problem is that consumerism has become so deeply ingrained in our culture people don't know what life would be like otherwise. Plus the capitalist system NEEDS greed and NEEDS consumerism to continue. The capitalist system only works by continually growing and expanding. Eventually there will be no more way to grow and expand....When the capitalist system begins collapsing, that's when we can make a change. You can't really deny that capitalism is destined to be it's own demise. By continually consuming our resources we will eventually run out.

Lets face it, if I was a cavewoman, would I really let another part of the "pride" share my fire? I don't even think they did.. They were pretty animalistic and true to who their pride is.. Like Lions of today.

Oh, and sorry for discrepencies.. I'm not a evolutionist, by any means.. I was just taking a small example.

As in pride are you refering to their tribe? I don't see why they wouldn't share. By sharing their fire today then the others can share it with them tomorrow. The greatest good is almost always achieved with cooperation.

Marxism seems friendly and nice enough, but when I see the word communism, I instantly think of all those times it's gone wrong and think about it.. Hard.. And realise that most people are misinformed and that's when it REALLY gets my goat up.

I don't see why believing in communism makes on misinformed. Isn't that a rather bold and arrogant statement to make? Communist ideals are definately not the norm.

I don't really see how you can honestly and plausibly see people living like that. It's like telling everyone that THAT is what they have to do whether they like it or not. Where is the freedom of choice? And I know you can just counter balance that with capitalism, but surely that seems like a much better place to live in... Because of what I write below!

I can only hope one day we could live like that. It would be the biggest improvement from everyone hating eachother like today. I don't see where you have the idea that marxism = no freedom. It's just not true. You have just as much freedom as capitalist if not much more.

I hope you realise, too, that if you had no salary then your economy would collapse..

Or are you saying there'd be no need for exchange rates, inflation and interest rates?

The only true way what your proposing would work.. Is if everyone and every country was a Marxist society.

That's what I want. No economy. And yes the world should be marxist.

Good point. Kind of. I know a lot of businesses these days use like a "job production" scheme..

I.E. A person making a bed gets to make every single part of that bed and put their name on it. Granted. It's an expensive bed and they get paid less but they're happy of what they've made.

However, who is to say that isn't biased information? There's always a lot of it floating around.. And I'm taking that example from something I saw on TV..

Media influences again, I guess.

Blame it on the media (heheh). Marxism is even a step above that though. It's not just creating the whole thing and seeing your product shipped off for money. You create something and know that it will be useful for yourself and other people. That is true value.

For example, if I ended up designing web pages when I want to make games, then it would matter. And I know for a fact I'd be paid a lot less making games as a Junior Programmer.. Heh.

However, this IS a capitalist society.. and to me it does matter what I produce.

And yes, I realise this is like saying I do agree in this whole Communism thing.. But no, really, I don't. Why? Because I believe it leads to abuse of a well thought out system.. It's sad really.

If implemented improperly yes it could. But what system couldn't? Just take religion for example. It's supposed to be a pure thing above love and kindness and freedom equality etc (most of em). However people use it to justify horrible things like slavery and murder. Now of course as rational people we know that's not the religion but the people. Same thing with communism.

If you don't work you shouldn't be paid (i.e. dole systems in the UK). Most places don't really give you any income support for not working. But with Communism you can do any job and be paid the same salary, or no salary right?

I believe that salary is a driving force for many people.. So, if you do that, then you have a problem where the job is devalued and people pay a lot less attention psychologically (even if they're not aware of it) to what they're doing.

I think it is the opposite. This is opinion however and neither of us can prove one way or another, but just listen here. When our jobs are merely for a monetary value where's the motivation? Money? If your labor is a shallow material process how can you be proud of and cherish the product of your labor? Have you ever tried really hard to fix something for someone you know, or go very far out of your way to do something that would help someone else? You know the feeling, and you have a cause to your labor. It's the same thing with Marxism. You aren't working for your pay, you're working for the benefit of the community, because your labor will go to good use.

Ok. Any other job where the person would get paid more than a road sweeper.

I'm studying to be an electrical engineer. Yes, it will pay very good. But besides that I hope that I can design something or allow my work to be of use to someone. If I am not fullfilled by what my job will produce then I will probably try and work elsewhere. I don't think it's all about the money. Or if it is it'll be a job you're not happy with. Like you and programming. You would do that and design games or whatever you want because you like it. That's reason enough to become educated and do it. Because you enjoy it. It doesn't matter if it's more difficult. The fact is you can do it, and like it. Also I would like to think that some people actually enjoy learning. School can weigh one down with lots of work and being expensive, however you can still learn many things.

Doesn't just have to be a doctor you know, in a way you'd be saying everyone is conditioned to be the same.. I.E. some form of robots

I don't understand what you mean about the communistic robots? Is working in an office 9 to 5 every day not robotic?

I'm not a Doctor. In modern day times, are you sure they come home every night satisfied? I wouldn't like to wager on it. Sure, they may be happy that they saved some lives.. But are they HAPPY. Baring in mind they get paid a salary too, and it's like a driving force.. If you took that away... Then what? Does he still remain happy, or does he not remain as happy?

I know they can't be satisfied every day. But there must be some overall satisfaction in what one's work is in order for them to continue on without despair. Let's assume as you said for a minute that money is what makes people happy from their labor. In that logic whether or not you are curing diseases or torturing someone shouldn't matter, only what you are paid. Let's say the torturer is paid MUCH more, 100 times as much to be exact. However in reality he feels very sick and sad when he comes home from work knowing the terrible acts he has done. The one curing diseases gets a big sense of pride for the work he has done and how he can save lives.

You could end up on the road from what looks like a perfect utopia on the outside.. To a hellish dystopia in the end.

Or we could continue on our same path where many people are starving and murdering eachother over money. It may not work perfectly in implementation. But we need a change. And Marxism very well could be that.

Yes, but I was talking about Communism. When Communism spirals out of control and people start saying they don't want this and they don't like it.. The state HAS to take a form of control to keep the economic stability!

Also! I've said this before, but Marxism is a "perfect" theory and we aren't "perfect" people. We all can't be Jesus or Muhammed or Buddha.

What about capitalism spinning out of control because nobody wants to work? If all laborers were to strike capitalism would fall apart. There is not that unity within people however. No system can be perfect, but you must look at what it acheives while running smoothly, not only the worst case scenario.

Yeah, we aren't perfect people. But if we settle for less than we limit ourselves. By pushing ourselves and striving to do the best we can, we improve. By settling for capitalism we are limiting ourselves in the lives they we could live.

I want to sit on my ass all day, is that ok too? .. I mean we don't get paid, so do I have a reason to go up and paint houses or sweep roads?

Well Marx believes that people are laboring beings by nature. Given the choice to labor and create or do nothing, that we would choose laboring. I would have to agree to an extent. I don't think one would want to sit on their ass all day and do nothing. How long could one continue like that? And if they did, the only logical thing I can say is that if you don't contribute to the community than you cannot partake in what it creates.

So, we're meant to give up on agriculture and stuff? We're just meant to starve?

Agriculture and farming is another form of labour.. And we need that labour to stay alive.

Why would we give up on that? Of course we would still produce food. Think for a second, there are still farmers. Small farmers sure don't make a lot of money, so they must have other reasons for farming.....XD

A lot of people these days are materialistic and enjoy luxuries.. Even so JUST the community won't keep everyone happy.

They're all unique and different right? So equality can't be formed unless you condition people to be exactly the same.. I.E. robots again.

Why does economic equality = exactly the same. I don't expect people to be exactly the same. But economic equality is a totally different thing. Just because there is no private property doesn't mean we have to do away with all luxuries. Think for a second, about how much technology we have. Now think about how many people are working in this world, and there still aren't enough jobs for all of them. Now think about how much of our labor actually is dedicated to our survival? Not very much. Maybe 5% would a very generous estimate. The fact is, we don't need to work a lot to survive. That's why people would design and create luxuries in their free time.

I mean lets face it.. Urn flamed me for being different.

/me shrugs.

I rest my case.. There'd be unrest in a community.

People won't always get on together, you know? What happens when you get a husband and wife and the wife cheats on the husband.

How do you manage to stay "friends" with that person and work for the good of the "community"

It fails to be a friend nor a community after that.

In reality I think a marxist society would consist of many small communities. Of course not everyone gets along. But even people who disagree can put aside their differences. And if they can't they can move somewhere else to not see eachother, much as someone might do in our current society. Just because I don't like one person living in my communty doesn't mean I dislike the whole community. It boils down to people putting aside petty differences.

It's gotten off topic. I said that both fascism and communism is wrong and that they can be seen as offensive by members. If they see it that way why should they have to put up with it? It's your ideals and no one is trying to stop you from having them. Why should I be stopped of having mine and be getting flamed by your other members?

I don't think you're being flamed. The thing is, people might find this offensive. But people can find anything offensive. If they don't like it, they can keep away from the communist guild. They can turn off signatures and not look at our ideals. But the thing is, if we shouldn't subject people to these beliefs, then we should subject them to none. That would call for total censorship which doesn't seem appealing to me. People need to not be so offended by on other's opinons. People will inevitably disagree, it is up to them what to do when they do however.

All I'm saying is, have respect for other members, try to keep ideals to yourself. You seem like you have decent ideals, but I can assure you it depends on how people "interpret" communism, and that's when it becomes offensive and when it should be stopped.

If you have respect for us members you should understand it's only fair for us to express our opinions. Otherwise no one would talk and this community wouldn't be what it is. The fact it is open to all ideas is what makes it great. I find Bush very offensive and think the things he does are horrible and tyrannical. However I won't fuss when people promote them in their posts....

I wasn't planning on replying on this, because it's all a big matter of opinion, but I have.. Because I couldn't just leave it as it was. I'm not flaming any of your members.. I'm trying to say that it's wrong to discuss politics.. But hey, since a mod said it's ok then I guess it's ok.

Everything is a matter of an opinion. Every single thing you believe is based on premises...none of those are fact. If you follow back to the beginning it goes back to your beliefs of what you believe is true. Therefore everything is based on one's beliefs and therefore their opinion. It seems to me there has been a lot of discussion of politics on this board. Honestly, if you don't like discussing politics you can avoid those threads. Just as I might avoid hentai and anime threads as they don't interest me.

And by the by, if someone made a fascist guild they'd be banned.. What's wrong with them having their ideals?

Would they?

This is why I said politics is wrong to be brought into an emulation forum.

P.S. It took me ages to write this post, so sorry if it's a double post.

/me has no idea if it is or not.

Our lives are political in nature, as are human interactions. If this forum was limited to emulation only it wouldn't be what it is, and people would lose interest. But by bringing in other aspects of life people have a chance to continue to communicate, to continue to discuss, and to learn.

After this post my 500 gil or so shall be donated. XD I don't see exactly how it fits in with the marxist ideal, but I'm in.

[Themikemachine]

Damn that was a long post!! Now can you make a shortened version?

[Nima D'Graven]

Originally posted by Urn
[B]I can quote one good writer... 'Im always amazed, how people
on the basis of right facts built wrong theories'. Sorry for awry translation.

"And if youre searching for bad things on forum, youve found another one. You, flamer. And please, dont post here again"

Enough said.

Smells like racism. And, thats biology question.
All people are equal. Dont Agree??Yeah, just say that white men are higher...

"Physically, they don't have to be equal.. They can have different colour hair, eyes and skin..

So straight away, they're not totally equal on SIGHT.. and no I'm not saying this is a good thing"

No one even said that white men were better and a black man wasn't. You're interpreting me wrong. Notice I said:

"and no I'm not saying this is a good thing"

I'm saying, you're biologically not equal, so you saying we immediately have equality isn't an accurate statement. Whether you like it or not.

Haha, in your world salary is everything for you. Thats pathetic.
And selfish.

You live in the same World and obide by the same standards.

Were not discussing the topic "How To Feed All People With Minimum Costs". Maybe, youll create one?

You started it.

"Do you realise how many people they could feed??"

About democracy... There in no democracy.

There'd be a democracy with an implemented Marxism, eh?

Because of money. There will appear people, who will want to
have everything. All the money. Thats why all pure democracy
beginings will lead to capitalism problems, corruption and so on.

/me looks at Communism in the past and isn't impressed either with their form of democracy.

Oh and by the way, you ARE the communist group.. Not Marxism, theory or not.

And... Hahaha. You think that your vote mean something.

Well, doh! Obviously it does if you can physically remove a party in power.

No. It means nothing. Everything is bought. And thats why im so angry. I cant stand to see how rich people slave poor ones.

Why tar everyone with the same brush? Not ALL rich people SLAVE poor people.

Exploiter even have a song "Theres a law for the rich, and no for the people like you and me". Dont object. At least for now.
Think about it.

Sure, money does help them a lot.. But it doesn't mean that you're totally powerless.

And please. Admit. That having a dream is a good thing...
(Ahem... Never mind, im just flying in the skies)

I did say that.

"It's perfectly healthy to believe in a theory that is pure and crystal clean."

For now, i can say, that comrade NimaGraven trying to cling
some small, pointless details, tries to divide one question into
many questions, and complicate everything. Thats not good.

AND!! Importand.
NimaGraven EVADES answering direct questions.
Ex. : see quotes above.

Yeah, more like, read your post and realise you didn't even read a word I said in the first place. Well done.

PS. Iraq problem and democracy is another good topic to discuss,
but, please, not in that thread.

Uh huh. I'll keep bringing it up in this topic if I want to. Until I get an answer on how those people were "pathetic" when they couldn't do anything about it.

Oh, baring in mind that Iraq was a left wing economic country, I was just thinking maybe a Communist could explain that to me.

PPS. About money and salary. Im sick of that dirty pieces of paper.
Im not greedy, ill always share everything that i have.
But think about it. Isnt its annoying, always worry about how much somebody owes you, or you owe somebody. Or that somebody will take and wont return you something, that BELONGS TO YOU.
Im sick of it.

Good for you then.

[Nima D'Graven]

Originally posted by Xaenn
[B]
Ok, not all rich people don't want equality. However when you have rich conservative capitalists running a business (the media) of course they are going to promote the economic system which has pushed them high above everyone else. It's common logic. It would be very difficult to inplement Marxism now, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't want to.

It'd be virtually impossible.

That's good then, (if he's telling the truth). The thing is, when celebs are donating and talking about this kinda stuff, it's almost always made VERY sure they the public hears about it. It's good for their image (not meaning the whole motive if selfish).

Yep. That's what I thought, it may be biased or it may be not. The higher taxes from the rich thing in this country came from a Conservative government, though.. Or I'm sure it did.

I don't think anyone is saying that communism hasn't gone awry. But that is from bad intentions from the start.

Well, yes.. Paying everyone the same salary leads to an economic disaster.. The only true way would be to pay no one a salary (i.e. Marxism).. I don't know though.. Some of your members don't really seem to know some of the bad points of it, but I guess they do now if they didn't.

I don't have a problem with the hentai sigs. I don't view avatars or signatures. Mainly because my connection is super slow and I just wanna get to the core of the post.

Well, it was a bit of a silly analogy to make in the first place.. I can talk out against this.. So why can't anyone talk out against that? That's what I was saying.

I don't blame just the media. However is strongly promotes this style of living. America is the consumer culture, which expects to be entertained (the second part had no relevance, just wanted to throw it in ). I don't think the majority of people are selfish. There are a lot who are, but I really think a lot of people are just misguided. If they took some time to re-evaluate their lives they might see things differently.

I guess so.

Yes i have studied this briefly. And it is true. But also the way the media works is by sending it's message out to some people, who pass it along. The problem is that consumerism has become so deeply ingrained in our culture people don't know what life would be like otherwise. Plus the capitalist system NEEDS greed and NEEDS consumerism to continue. The capitalist system only works by continually growing and expanding. Eventually there will be no more way to grow and expand....When the capitalist system begins collapsing, that's when we can make a change. You can't really deny that capitalism is destined to be it's own demise. By continually consuming our resources we will eventually run out.

I'm not sure what you mean, natural resources? They find a lot more ways to use other natural resources everyday. I suppose you could acquire Marxism that way, but with so many businesses falling anyway and more businesses taking that place of the original one it would be unlikely that this happens, or at least in my mind. Besides, when you grow too fast, you get a recession, right? So more businesses fail under the trade cycle life thing. And because of it more replace..

As in pride are you refering to their tribe? I don't see why they wouldn't share. By sharing their fire today then the others can share it with them tomorrow. The greatest good is almost always achieved with cooperation.

Yeah, I meant by their tribe.. But we both don't know that for definite on what they'd do.. I really wished I'd watched the life of cavemen now with that Psychology dude .

I don't see why believing in communism makes on misinformed. Isn't that a rather bold and arrogant statement to make? Communist ideals are definately not the norm.

No, you aren't misinformed. Some of your friends are. And, by the way, if you want to see bold and arrogant statements, see Urn's posts to me. They're not particularly nice and I'm trying to be as nice as I can to you people.

I can only hope one day we could live like that. It would be the biggest improvement from everyone hating eachother like today. I don't see where you have the idea that marxism = no freedom. It's just not true. You have just as much freedom as capitalist if not much more.

I don't know. I think with marxism you'd be forced to conform to something you won't necessarily want.. To me it looks like a Utopia on the outside.. But a dystopia from within.

That's what I want. No economy. And yes the world should be marxist.

Ok.

Blame it on the media (heheh). Marxism is even a step above that though. It's not just creating the whole thing and seeing your product shipped off for money. You create something and know that it will be useful for yourself and other people. That is true value.

But if you hate the other person...

If implemented improperly yes it could. But what system couldn't? Just take religion for example. It's supposed to be a pure thing above love and kindness and freedom equality etc (most of em). However people use it to justify horrible things like slavery and murder. Now of course as rational people we know that's not the religion but the people. Same thing with communism.

Well. I'm a strong believer that it would be implemented improperly. I don't really think that people have learned from their mistakes in the past.

I think it is the opposite. This is opinion however and neither of us can prove one way or another, but just listen here. When our jobs are merely for a monetary value where's the motivation? Money? If your labor is a shallow material process how can you be proud of and cherish the product of your labor? Have you ever tried really hard to fix something for someone you know, or go very far out of your way to do something that would help someone else? You know the feeling, and you have a cause to your labor. It's the same thing with Marxism. You aren't working for your pay, you're working for the benefit of the community, because your labor will go to good use.

But like I keep saying, it's unrealistic because everyone does not like everyone.

See Urn's posts. Is it not fair for me to say and judge that he hates rich people so much that if we ended up living in a Marxist society, he'd still hate and not help?

We'd all be in the same boat.. And people are ALWAYS going to hate someone else for whatever reason. It's sad, it's pathetic but it's a fact of life. People hate for colour, creed, god knows.

I'm studying to be an electrical engineer. Yes, it will pay very good. But besides that I hope that I can design something or allow my work to be of use to someone. If I am not fullfilled by what my job will produce then I will probably try and work elsewhere. I don't think it's all about the money. Or if it is it'll be a job you're not happy with. Like you and programming. You would do that and design games or whatever you want because you like it. That's reason enough to become educated and do it. Because you enjoy it. It doesn't matter if it's more difficult. The fact is you can do it, and like it. Also I would like to think that some people actually enjoy learning. School can weigh one down with lots of work and being expensive, however you can still learn many things.

No, it isn't all about the money.. But without money you're pretty much screwed.

But, if you implement Marxism, then you wouldn't allow me to work in a job that I enjoy so much.. I.e. Programming, because it is a job that isn't needed by the system.. So in a way, you start taking away what I want and what I enjoy and what I want to do.

I don't understand what you mean about the communistic robots? Is working in an office 9 to 5 every day not robotic?

It is. But if you see my point above, some of my civil liberties would be constrained even more in Marxism or Communism

I know they can't be satisfied every day. But there must be some overall satisfaction in what one's work is in order for them to continue on without despair.

Oh, and presuming there isn't. They go on strike.. Or they riot. Then what? You could get a collapsing health system. And sure enough, you can't replace all doctors THAT easily.. Yeah, you can do it for farming more easily.

Let's assume as you said for a minute that money is what makes people happy from their labor. In that logic whether or not you are curing diseases or torturing someone shouldn't matter, only what you are paid. Let's say the torturer is paid MUCH more, 100 times as much to be exact. However in reality he feels very sick and sad when he comes home from work knowing the terrible acts he has done. The one curing diseases gets a big sense of pride for the work he has done and how he can save lives.

That's an assumption and it isn't backed up by fact.

How do you not know that someone on death row enjoys pushing the button or what not on an electric chair? *even though they probably don't use this method anymore*

How do you not know that the Doctor is only being a Doctor because his Mum or Dad said to?

There's inhumane people in life and bringing in Marxism wouldn't stop that at all..

Or we could continue on our same path where many people are starving and murdering eachother over money. It may not work perfectly in implementation. But we need a change. And Marxism very well could be that.

And all murder would stop in Marxism? I just don't think so somehow.

What about capitalism spinning out of control because nobody wants to work?

Yes. But if they want to survive, they have to work to earn a salary. They choose whether they die out on the streets or whatever. And if you think it's so easy to get dole money, then think again, I can give you some real life examples of people who've deserved it and haven't got it.

If all laborers were to strike capitalism would fall apart.

If all labourers would strike, their civil liberties would be taken away by the government.

There is not that unity within people however. No system can be perfect, but you must look at what it acheives while running smoothly, not only the worst case scenario.

Depends.

Yeah, we aren't perfect people. But if we settle for less than we limit ourselves. By pushing ourselves and striving to do the best we can, we improve. By settling for capitalism we are limiting ourselves in the lives they we could live.

But what if people really don't think they're limiting themselves? What if they AREN'T limiting themselves and enjoying themselves. Why should they be thrust into Marxism if they don't want it? It should all be people's choice.

Well Marx believes that people are laboring beings by nature. Given the choice to labor and create or do nothing, that we would choose laboring. I would have to agree to an extent. I don't think one would want to sit on their ass all day and do nothing. How long could one continue like that? And if they did, the only logical thing I can say is that if you don't contribute to the community than you cannot partake in what it creates.

Then it makes Marxism as bad as Capitalism. I guess. Except in Capitalism, at least people have YMCA's and things...

And, you could get a strike in Marxism too.. Probably a lot more easier than you could in Capitalism.. If the government is forced to see the error of it's ways.. Would they just impose more constraints on them? This is why I said they end up corrupted in the first place.. All you need is a few unhappy people, and that is bound to happen under any system, any place, any time.

Why would we give up on that? Of course we would still produce food. Think for a second, there are still farmers. Small farmers sure don't make a lot of money, so they must have other reasons for farming.....XD

You're wrong there.. They make quite a bit of money.

Why does economic equality = exactly the same. I don't expect people to be exactly the same.

Urn does, heck, he even said what I was saying is racist when I pointed out we have basic biological differences.

But economic equality is a totally different thing. Just because there is no private property doesn't mean we have to do away with all luxuries. Think for a second, about how much technology we have. Now think about how many people are working in this world, and there still aren't enough jobs for all of them. Now think about how much of our labor actually is dedicated to our survival? Not very much. Maybe 5% would a very generous estimate. The fact is, we don't need to work a lot to survive. That's why people would design and create luxuries in their free time.

Yeah, the only problem with that is.. It takes a long time to design and create luxuries.. And if people are used to something and they're not used to that, then you may get forms of unrest..

In reality I think a marxist society would consist of many small communities. Of course not everyone gets along. But even people who disagree can put aside their differences.

LOL. Doesn't happen. So if you put a white BNP (Fascist basically) member with a bunch of black people.. Or, something to a similar affect, they're going to put aside their differences and play ball game? I really, REALLY doubt that.

And if they can't they can move somewhere else to not see eachother, much as someone might do in our current society.

Time wasted = More people starving.

Just because I don't like one person living in my communty doesn't mean I dislike the whole community. It boils down to people putting aside petty differences.

And people won't.

I don't think you're being flamed. The thing is, people might find this offensive. But people can find anything offensive. If they don't like it, they can keep away from the communist guild.

But the point is, you're saying your a Marxist yet you're in a Communist guild. Now I know they're closely linked, but Communism is a helluva lot more offensive than Marxism in my book.

They can turn off signatures and not look at our ideals. But the thing is, if we shouldn't subject people to these beliefs, then we should subject them to none.

Why should they? Why should they be chased and cajoled into doing that?

That would call for total censorship which doesn't seem appealing to me. People need to not be so offended by on other's opinons. People will inevitably disagree, it is up to them what to do when they do however.

Yeah, and the sad thing is when people disagree on this forum, they tend to get nasty. Believe me. Which is why I simply said it shouldn't be here in the first place because people may get offended and may get nasty.

If you have respect for us members you should understand it's only fair for us to express our opinions.

I do. And so far, in my eyes, you're the only one treating me with respect..

Otherwise no one would talk and this community wouldn't be what it is. The fact it is open to all ideas is what makes it great. I find Bush very offensive and think the things he does are horrible and tyrannical. However I won't fuss when people promote them in their posts....

What's wrong in speaking your mind?

Everything is a matter of an opinion. Every single thing you believe is based on premises...none of those are fact. If you follow back to the beginning it goes back to your beliefs of what you believe is true. Therefore everything is based on one's beliefs and therefore their opinion. It seems to me there has been a lot of discussion of politics on this board. Honestly, if you don't like discussing politics you can avoid those threads. Just as I might avoid hentai and anime threads as they don't interest me.

I never said I didn't like speaking about politics. But even every single thing you believe is based on a premises too...

Would they?

Yes. I asked what would happen if someone did. So it's one rule for you and one rule for another.

Our lives are political in nature, as are human interactions. If this forum was limited to emulation only it wouldn't be what it is, and people would lose interest. But by bringing in other aspects of life people have a chance to continue to communicate, to continue to discuss, and to learn.

But people start to insult and fail to "discuss".l

After this post my 500 gil or so shall be donated. XD I don't see exactly how it fits in with the marxist ideal, but I'm in.

You're in the implemented guild, not the theory guild.