The Communist Guild

[Toto]

Well, I've just posted for a number of reasons.
1) To get attention. I want to argue vehemently too.
2) To say I've donated every monies I've had to MasJ man.
3) To say I'll post in response to Nimagraven.

[Dingy]

This thread rocks, communism rulez!
I'm in! I honestly think, communism is so much better than any other govt.
I believe in the dictatorship of the proletariat, and this is my first thread in this post, but it's interesting+very educational reading what everyone has to say. That bitch bush should just get it in his ass with a nuke. I don't understand why democracy has to be so afraid of communism and it's power. It's the most thorough and perfect ideology ever made and just because Stalin couldn't make much of it shouldn't undermine it's importance in any way...

Ok, these are some of my thoughts after reading what everyone had to say,
Marxism or revolutionary/scientific socialism is a theory and Marx was a proponent of communism, it was the final and last stage in his theory of historical materialism which he liked to call as utopia and associated the credo "Each to his ability to each to his need" to it . You can't say they're two very different things. Communism has digressed from the ideology that it used to be when it was created as we have seen with the introduction of glasnost and perestoika in Russia and the entry of MNCs in China. But democracy has also evolved into something they were not meant to be originally.
But personally, I think it's vital for a govt. to be evolutionary in nature, or else what is not dynamic is bound to be redundant.
The gross manifestation and revamping of communisn into a dictatorial one-man-killing machine, is the misinterpretation of the very doctrine Marx has produced.
Today, communism is very difficult to achieve, because, greed is man's peccadillo, and even in a group of workers, each one can't be accounted as an equal, because one of them will have to rise above the rest, in the form of a state/leader/organization/committee/union/etc. to guide the rest to a harmonious path without chaos and anarchy.
But I do believe communism in a way hinders talent and liberty, for eg. if a worker wants to work for more than the prescibed no. off hours, he can't which leads to a waste of his talent and liberty.
But I still stand by the fact that communism is a perfect doctrine in hand, it's implementation is what has given it a bad name.

[johnny blaze]

Originally posted by <<Tairou>>
commies still around?

Where have you been the last century?

[Urn]

Again, NimaGraven EVADES answering direct questions.
All people equalls. Forget about biology, were not talking
about that. But if you want, genetically, theres no difference
between europeans, aziats, or africans.
IF you say theres a difference, where is it??? Just say, that white
men are better. Say it!! Or black men!! Comon, say it!!!
Or admit, that all people equall. There are no middle positions.
(!!!)You again trying to cling pointless details.

'bout flaming. YOU came here and started to flame. Read the first
post. Is there smth like 'Your oppinion on subj'??? Nope.
Just asking, are you in or not. AND you said, that communism
is bad, and we should stop this thread. YOUR WORDS.
Whose the flamer?? Ofcourse i was angry.

Were not discussing the topic "How To Feed All People With Minimum Costs".

I didnt start that. I was talking about starving people, and you

Vegetarians have ideas about how if people stopped eating meat you could use the food that is used to fatten animals up to feed starving people

Started to talk about how to do that that.
(!!!)You again trying to cling pointless details.

Haha, in your world salary is everything for you. Thats pathetic.
And selfish.
You live in the same World and obide by the same standards.

I wanted to say, in YOUR SMALL WORLD salary is everything. Pathetic.
Silly thoughts, like 'I live to eat'.
For me salary isnt everything. Im ready to do my job for free,
for everybody wholl ask (Well, i actually do that) .

Not ALL rich people SLAVE poor people.

All. Even the fact, that they EAT 5 times a day delicious food
and at thet time somebody beggin...!! For some god damn soup!!!
Or dying because because has no money on medicine!!!
That is your democracy, capitalism.

(Damn, im so angry, ill go drink some tea to calm down)
(Ok, im calm)
And you think where did they money came from???

Sorry, said Exploiter insted Exploited.

Yeah, more like, read your post and realise you didn't even read a
word I said in the first place. Well done.

What?

[Dingy]

well said Urn!
I agree with you, capitalism=exploitation
All people are born equal, I don't know about "we are god's children" and stuff, but I do know that equality is what capitaliam lacks. They're just too high and mighty with their horses in the air and when the horse kicks them, they'll come crashing down.
People are always hated for being too rich by the poor, that's still understandable, (for a few) but what is incorrigible is when the rich hate the poor and think they're some kind of vermins or something, that's capitalism, it does not acommodate the poor or their interests.

[Ifrit]

Originally posted by Dingy
well said Urn!
I agree with you, capitalism=exploitation
All people are born equal, I don't know about "we are god's children" and stuff, but I do know that equality is what capitaliam lacks. They're just too high and mighty with their horses in the air and when the horse kicks them, they'll come crashing down.
People are always hated for being too rich by the poor, that's still understandable, (for a few) but what is incorrigible is when the rich hate the poor and think they're some kind of vermins or something, that's capitalism, it does not acommodate the poor or their interests.

Well said, you're in. Dingy, promote communism - use one of our pics in your sig

[Nima D'Graven]

Originally posted by Urn
Again, NimaGraven EVADES answering direct questions.
All people equalls. Forget about biology, were not talking
about that. But if you want, genetically, theres no difference
between europeans, aziats, or africans.
IF you say theres a difference, where is it??? Just say, that white
men are better. Say it!! Or black men!! Comon, say it!!!
Or admit, that all people equall. There are no middle positions.
(!!!)You again trying to cling pointless details.

'bout flaming. YOU came here and started to flame. Read the first
post. Is there smth like 'Your oppinion on subj'??? Nope.
Just asking, are you in or not. AND you said, that communism
is bad, and we should stop this thread. YOUR WORDS.
Whose the flamer?? Ofcourse i was angry.


I didnt start that. I was talking about starving people, and you

Started to talk about how to do that that.
(!!!)You again trying to cling pointless details.



I wanted to say, in YOUR SMALL WORLD salary is everything. Pathetic.
Silly thoughts, like 'I live to eat'.
For me salary isnt everything. Im ready to do my job for free,
for everybody wholl ask (Well, i actually do that) .


All. Even the fact, that they EAT 5 times a day delicious food
and at thet time somebody beggin...!! For some god damn soup!!!
Or dying because because has no money on medicine!!!
That is your democracy, capitalism.

(Damn, im so angry, ill go drink some tea to calm down)
(Ok, im calm)
And you think where did they money came from???

Sorry, said Exploiter insted Exploited.


What?

You call me "pathetic", the only person here that is avoiding direct questions is you my friend by flaming me you're proving that you only base everything on ignorance.

By the way.. Are you claiming you don't live in a capitalist world? Because you are.. So this "small world" is one you're living in to. Salary dictates your world too. It seems you can't accept that, and it's good to see you get wound up so much over the truth! Learn to accept the truth! I know *I* have .

Don't bring up crap that YOU can't counter, don't say I'm wrong when I give you possible solutions to world hunger when even YOU brought it up that marxism could HELP world hunger.

If you can't accept this, then you have no reason to flame me other than you're angry at the truth that you live in a capitalist world.

Anyway, back to lessons.

EDIT: As for genetics, yes! Black men, white men and asian men have different genetic codes.. That is why they are different colours, the DNA chain dictates how much "melanin" they have in their skin!

[Mason]

People, this is politics. I know some of you get really caught up in which is the "right" way to run our society, but please don't attack each other when debating issues. It doesn't help prove your point and it makes you look rather petty.

[Xaenn]

Originally posted by Maison
People, this is politics. I know some of you get really caught up in which is the "right" way to run our society, but please don't attack each other when debating issues. It doesn't help prove your point and it makes you look rather petty.

The man's got a point....

The thing is, Marx and Engels wrote the COMMUNIST manifesto. So I don't see how you can see that marx's theory isn't communism. What has been implemented is merely branched off from but based on his theories (like Dingy said).

Marxism won't end people hating eachother, but the thing is, they hate eachother in capitalist society. It doesn't mean they'd be working hand in hand together (those particular people). So they would deal with eachother in the same fashion as now.

You talked about businesses cycling out and more replacing them. Yes this is true. I was talking about using up our natural resources. Whether or not one business or another is using them, we are consuming them at an alarming rate. I don't really know what the numbers were, but I think it was estimated that a in the past 50 or 100 years the same amount of resources have been consumed as the rest of history of humanity. If that isn't alarming, I don't know what is. Just look at all of the overflowing landfills and waste and pollution everywhere, it isn't hard to see. Which leads to the inevitable fate that if the way our society runs doesn't change, into a state of sustainable development it will have to perish eventually. But by nature capitalism needs to grow and people need to consume for it to function properly. I don't see how these two things are compatable.

I don't know. I think with marxism you'd be forced to conform to something you won't necessarily want.. To me it looks like a Utopia on the outside.. But a dystopia from within.

I don't understand your idea of Marxism forcing you to conform... Right now you are forced to live in a capitalist society...how is that any different? Also, I think you have a bit of a misconception. When the final state of Marx's system was to be implemented, people were meant to work at what they wanted to. That was the point is we could labor and produce how we choose to. Because he believed humans were laboring by nature and that having freedom to labor as we please would be the goal. Therefore you would have opportunities to work as you want in a marxist society where you don't in a capitalist one.

Another thing, I don't understand why this guild has to be about the implementation and not the ideal? Aren't all of these guilds representing either what one believes or something they think is fun?

Another thing I don't understand is why you say all of our civil liberties are constrained in a marxist society.

I think the problem is you're trying to hold Marxism to a standard MUCH higher than that of our own society. Of course it can't be perfect and won't solve all problems. It will solve economic equality, and invariably from there problems such as starvation, and not being able to get health care. I think if you looked around the world you'd see the vast majority of people without employment don't choose to live that way.

[Dingy]

Originally posted by NimaGraven
As for genetics, yes! Black men, white men and asian men have different genetic codes.. That is why they are different colours, the DNA chain dictates how much "melanin" they have in their skin!

Yes, but the whole point is that we are all EQUAL no matter what. You are the one who said that "we are biologically not equal", to which you got an adequate reaply "We are ALL equal" No one is questioning genetics, thank goodness, we are all different, I personally would get bored seeing everyone look the same but inequality is different from variety. Capitalism ignores that, they believe in equality amongst the haves and ignore the needs of the have-nots, communists view equality as a pre-requisite to secure greater freedom to greater numbers.
Political freedom is pointless in a capitalist country, because give the rich the right to vote, and they'll elect a wealthier person than all of them collectively, however, give a poor the right to vote without economic equality (which doesn't exist in a capitalist country) and it's futile to him, he'll sell it for food or money, or he'll be too damned ignorant+apathetic to vote for some rich guy who doesn't even know who his neighbour is unless he's got a better car than him or something of the sort.
Economic equality is essential to achieve political & legal liberty, and this is what communism provides...
Marxism rightly highlights that an impoverished or propertyless labourer can never be free as he has absolutely no bargaining power.
I agree with Xaenn, we should emphasize less on its implementation and more on it's existence as an ideology, however, I must bring forth some very natural flaws in communism...
First, there is a danger of a society like this being tyrannised by it's own institution, because bereacracies and parties tend to disregard general interest.
Second, Marx always over-emphasized on the economic sphere which he thought to be the "super-structure" of society, which sometimes neglects political freedom.
Third, Marx, in his theory of dialectical materialism says that every stage of history falls short of perfection, and he calls this stage a "thesis". Now after a short while there emerges a contradiction of this very thesis called "anti-thesis". These two classes continue to exist simultaneously for a while until the worker reaches his nodle point and is saturated and thus selects his vangaurd and revolts, now what emerges is a "synthesis". And he stated that every stage in history pre-supposes that in due time it will lead to another.
However, in his second tenet called Historical materialism (where he divides history into 6 water-tight compartments), he stops at Communism, he does not tell his readers what came/comes after communism, that in fact contradicts his previous theory.

[Mason]

Ideology is great and all, but if the implementation is always going to fail, then the ideology isn�t very useful. The problem is that communism fails to address a couple of key issues.

One, if everyone is earning the same amount of money, what incentive is there to work harder than anyone else? There is none. You�ll be paid the same no matter what kind of effort you put into your work. If someone else decides to work less hard than you, then you�ll have no reason to keep working as hard either. Pretty soon everyone will work less and less hard, until people are barely working at all, i.e. the economy collapses.

I realize there�s the whole �getting enjoyment out of a job well done,� but that doesn�t put food on the table. People will only work as hard as the person next to them, and as soon as someone lowers the bar everyone else will lower themselves to the same standard.

Two, not all jobs are created equal. Some jobs just aren�t desirable no matter what you try to do to make them so. Do any of you actually want to spend your life cleaning bathrooms? How about trash collecting? Inspecting sewers? These are jobs that need to be done, but which people don�t wish to do. Kids don�t say �I wish I could be a garbage man when I grow up!� People need an incentive to do their work, and the lower on the food chain the job is the more in need it is of having a monetary incentive.

You all seem to think that everyone will love the job they end up doing. However, in all societies a significant portion of people hate their job. Communism doesn�t fix the problem, if anything it worsens it. At least with capitalism they have a reason to put some amount of effort into their work. Capitalism works because it feeds off of our own selfish desires. Communism fails for this same reason.

[Stranger]

Originally posted by Workers, Unite!
Anarchism wasn't his main idea, he wrote a bloody book disproving the theories of Bakunin, you crazy Stranger.
I wants a montage sig of Lenin and Marx and Stalin.

I woundn't be surprised if I was wrong cause me memory sucks but according to me teachings Marx thought the world would go:

(Readers Digest version)
1st cavemen (and cavewomen)
2nd Kings (and Queens)
3rd Capitalists (and Capitalistas?)
4th Communists
5th Anarchists


which would be the ultimate goal.
According to Marx human society was on an upward trend evolving to a better political system every so often, I thought Marx only disagreed with Bakunin cause he (Bakunin) thought we could go straight into a form of Anarchism without going through true Communism 1st. Bakunin had the idea of Communist-Anarchism it wasn't even true Anarchism though.

BUT I could be wrong (it wouldn't be the 1st time) don't know 4 sure.

Still it seems you know a fair bit about the subject which is nice.

btw I can understand you wanting Marx in your sig he was a great thinker and philosopher but Lenin and Stalin?

[Stranger]

Originally posted by Maison
Ideology is great and all, but if the implementation is always going to fail, then the ideology isn�t very useful.

but just because an idea isn't practical it doesn't mean it is completely usless, the more you discuss an idea the more it evolves and (hopefully) gets better until some bright spark can refine the idea into something that actually works

Originally posted by Maison

Kids don�t say �I wish I could be a garbage man when I grow up!�

Umm I actually wanted to be a garbageman when I was in grade 4, My friend and I had planned the whole thing out and were looking forward to working out in the open (slightly smelly) air. Because we were so cool everyone in the class tried to copy us but we excluded them and said they couldn't join. Heh heh that was pretty funny looking back on it but if society didn't value money so much maybe I would still want to be a garbo, who knows?
still gotta say your arguments are practical and make sense. unfortunately greed is a major part of humanity and it is one of the best ways of motivating people,

[Xaenn]

Originally posted by Stranger
but just because an idea isn't practical it doesn't mean it is completely usless, the more you discuss an idea the more it evolves and (hopefully) gets better until some bright spark can refine the idea into something that actually works

Yeah, it's a lot to expect of a few men to come up with the perfect system. Of course they can't have all the details figured out immediately, but we can use their basis to build on....I like it.

Umm I actually wanted to be a garbageman when I was in grade 4, My friend and I had planned the whole thing out and were looking forward to working out in the open (slightly smelly) air. Because we were so cool everyone in the class tried to copy us but we excluded them and said they couldn't join. Heh heh that was pretty funny looking back on it but if society didn't value money so much maybe I would still want to be a garbo, who knows?
still gotta say your arguments are practical and make sense. unfortunately greed is a major part of humanity and it is one of the best ways of motivating people,

Everyone is different. So different people enjoy doing different things. If something seems bad to you that doesn't mean someone else won't enjoy it.

Money is a pretty bad way to have to motivate people. If that's their only reason to do a job, then they don't have reason to do it well. Just look at all the shoddy worksmanship you can find all around.

[Stranger]

true but it is unlikely that everyone will want to do exactly what is needed, say if we need 3.7 % of people to do garbage work it is unlikely that we will get exactly that amount wanting to do that job, we wil get either more or less.
It might work if there were slight bonuses given to the people doing the less desirable jobs but then it would be like capitalism, the other alternative is just as some countries force their populace to serve their country in the army you could ask everyone to serve their country by being a toilet cleaner etc. for a couple of years to make up the numbers. but this topic can be explained much better by all the info available at your library or on the net you don't really need me telling you this stuff.
btw nice to know you are thinking for yrself.