Rejoice all! America stays safe!

[Mistral]

No disrespect, but i scoff at what you claim as progress when it comes to driving and heart attack deaths. We produce shit cars that get shit mileage, all the while having the labor for it outsourced. And the food? HAH. Go in your local grocary store (if you live in America) and randomly pick up 10 things and you will find out how healthy a lifestyle thats being promoted.

The devil of it is, it is progress that we can identify that these are unhealthy, rather than eating it without ever questioning.

On topic. Why do we have to list a way that it violated us directly? We would'nt know it even if it did. it's not a point of it violating us now, it's the point of it being a bridge of violations to come. It has not prevented any goddamn terror. The agancies should have shared info before 9-11 and the goddamn tragedy wouldn't have happened. Now we must get ass-raped so they can do their jobs? Fuck that.

How do you know it hasn't prevented terror? After all, I have here a rock that keeps away terrorists. How do I know it works? Well, I don't see any terrorists here, so it must be working.

And a brief synopsis, though probably not exhaustive, for Josh. In addition, section 215 is quite infamous as the so-called "library provision," which permits the government to issue warrants to open any consumer record (medical, legal, financial, or even library, hence the name) based on reasonable suspicion, rather than probable cause (which happens to be the basis for common law, from which both American and English legal systems are derived - note the 4th Amendment in the US Constitution for a subtle reminder of how warrants are supposed to be issued without another amendment). Oh, and section 805 (classifying any "expert advice or support" as terrorist support) was ruled unconstitutional due to vagueness (anything could be construed as advice or support, whether it directly related to terrorism or not), and section 505 was similarly ruled unconstitutional due to the fact that it let the government issue national security letters to bypass all judiciary oversight over law enforcement, like warrants.

Josh is actually speaking the truth

Thankfully, those sections weren't exactly under the sunset provisions, as far as I know. In essence, they weren't going to expire. And the majority of the Patriot Act's questionable sections aren't required to support interagency support infrastructure. You can't use them as a blanket statement to prop up the sections I already listed above. Makes me wish for a line veto rather than the present system, even if Bush wouldn't have used it...

[Sprung]

The people who don't like the Patriot Act dislike it because worrying about it takes too much time away from wrapping their heads with aluminium foil so they can hear the aliens better.

[Mistral]

The people who don't like the Patriot Act dislike it because worrying about it takes too much time away from wrapping their heads with aluminium foil so they can hear the aliens better.

Aluminum foil? Gods, are you insane? They use microwave beams to send information into our heads, and you know what aluminum foil does in a microwave...3 cm thick lead cap all the way.

And ad hominem attacks are not your friend.

[malice2501]

lol, you guys are some sick bastards

Anti-terror rock FTW!

On Topic: Someone care to explain how medical records will stop suicidal terrorists? GSW's have to be reported, other than that, wtf?

[madcrow]

Before the Patriot Act it was very hard for agencies to share gathered information. As for ways that it has prevented terrorism just read the quotes from above. If you ever watch the movie Farenhype 911 you will see a guy explain how it was used to prevent a bombing of the Brooklyn Bridge and how without it prevention would be near impossible.

Well then why not just re-activate those parts of the patriot act without letting the goverment spy on library records and stuff?

[Josh]

That's why they are trying to get an extension to work out the details, but the democratic party is wanting a really short extension that doesn't give them enough time.

[malice2501]

It could have worked it out to begin with. How hard is it to leave out the part about library records?

[Josh]

Until someone has a record of checking out Islamic extremists books or something.

[Skinner8]

Like what, the Koran? "Teach Yourself How To Bomb Western Pigs In One Week"?

[Skinner8]

Oh, also. Don't know where this is from originally, but:

Considering only 3000 or so people were killed, as opposed to the 1,611,833 that were killed by heart disease in 2001, I think I'll keep my civil liberties and take my chances with the whole being killed by terrorists thing.


Thanks, though.

[Josh]

Let me guess. You would take the chance to let them get WMDs to attack us. Then you don't know what the numbers could be like. The chance is low but still there.

[Skinner8]

Well, I'm taking the same chance with jet planes crashing into me and nearby nuclear power plants blowing up, and I'm not very fussed about that.

[Josh]

I live within 30 miles of the ONLY Uranium enrichment plant in the US, within 5 miles of a large dam that is above approximatly 20 chemical plants, and about 50 miles from Fort Cambell which is the home of the 101st Airborn Division. I do consider myself to be in a risk area.

[Dingy]

OK this is pissing me off. I'm sorry if I offend anyone, but I have to say this.

the Patriot Act was signed in 2001. This is now the very end of 2005. That's four years that it has been in effect. FOUR YEARS! How many of you have been effected by it directly via wire tapping? I would dare to say NONE! Let me repeat myself NONE!. Has the Patriot Act been used to prevent terroristic attacks? YES! The Patriot Act does far more then allowing the wire taps. It also helps the FBI, CIA, and other investigated branches of the government communicate and share information in an easier manner.

Oh shut up.

I am extremely inclined not to elaborate, but I must fight the urge. What attack has been prevented, pray tell? And when did this ("If you ever watch the movie Farenhype 911 you will see a guy explain how it was used to prevent a bombing of the Brooklyn Bridge and how without it prevention would be near impossible.") happen?
For easier flow of information b/w governmental agencies of investigation and information (FBI, CIA), there's no need to curtail the rights of people.
And like MasJ has already pointed out, the greatest travesty in the name of security was putting 8 bullets through an innocent man, amongst many other cases.

[legoman]

i'm sorry but i cant stay away from a discussion involving america, bush and insane policies

a while ago a survey was done on EP forums to ask people what religion they were there was a minority of muslims (5-6)
i feel i must say this cause i'm a muslim:
1)I (nor any of my family etc) have never ever seen a terrorist and i have lived in about 5 different countries
2)i dont know who to point the finger at here but a lot of muslims are suffering both directly and indirectly cause of the "war on terror" or whatever u wanna call it
3)islam is the biggest religion in the world
4)why is there such a big emphasis on terrorists being muslims and vice versa (the IRA in northern ireland weren't muslims yet they were called terrorists by the british and regarded as heroes by the irish)
5)other things too

oh yeah forget all the extremisim crap u hear on tv
i'm here on a forum like the rest of you
a bit geeky even...